This was a great read! Being aware of the rates of grooming is important. Even sleep away summer camps do not allow one on one time with the child and counselor in an isolated area.
Thanks so much. Yeah, I’ve been sitting on this topic for a while now, it’s a hard one to bring up and can definitely activate people, it’s uncomfortable, I get it. And people who are safe and loving could feel offended by our stance, which is truly not my intention. But I think the conversation and stats and reality of this stuff goes unspoken because people don’t want to upset the very good people- who I believe are the majority in our society. Thanks again for reading.
Right! I think what’s important is knowing what the risks are statistically. Personally even if my partner is a woman, I still wouldn’t take the risk of having them alone with a child. At least one other person who is trusted needs to be there in my opinion.
I cannot agree more strongly with you both! I am fully behind being poly and am so myself. However, when it comes to kids I become very conservative. They deserve no less. Many years ago a couple with whom I have had a poly relationship for over 50 years decided that they wanted to have an open marriage. They did not want children to be involved. Therefore they both took permanent measures; she had her tubes tied and he had a vasectomy. I was and am very proud of them for making that decision.
Of course it is possible for kids to grow up in poly situation. But it is the parents duty to put the kids needs first.
For sure. Consciously choosing whether or not to have children is so important. Liam and I feel very devoted to our parenting, and feel that we have good balance, with him always being our number one priority- as children should be.
Abby. Excellent article. Thank you for being open and honest in how you and Liam navigate the many different aspects of our lives. Btw loved Liam vasectomy podcast.
Thank you so much for reading!! Oh yes! The vasectomy pod- so much fun recording that one. Update- he is fully recovered and doing very well !!!!!! 😂🙌🏽
Our child's safety is the most important thing to consider when entering into a new relationship with anyone, be it a new friend or lover. The trust that is required to leave your child with someone else is huge, but not everyone has a reliable village around them in this day and age, and babysitter services have increased massively especially within city communities. In some circumstances I believe there is a requirement to give a little trust in order to grow connections (when situation is appropriate); this is of course once the due process and "screening" has occured, and the child and caregiver (for lack of a better term) have met under the watchful eye of their parents, not to mention it is amazing how acute a child's sense of safety is with an adult! The phrase you mention at the beginning sounds wonderful, but it can be very toxic too with people rushing towards that euphoric paradise without considering their child's safety first, so therefore should be taken with a big grain of caution. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this Abbey, I really admire how firm and clear your boundaries are in this area.
Yeah, look absolutely. And as I said in the article, of course there are wonderful, safe and caring step fathers to children. Everything is very case by case, with differing circumstances. I just personally believe that the combination of New Relationship Energy and kids / caregiving is something to be very, very aware about. And as you said, not to rush, and to properly screen. Whilst also knowing that oftentimes grooming can happen over a number of years before anything ‘happens’. It’s a very tricky conversation but one that I wanted to talk about because so many avoid it, nobody wants to be triggered. It truly is the most uncomfortable conversation to have. And the reality is, if someone is alone with an adult, the only people who actually know what is going on is those two, not the perception of who we believe the person is, or our preexisting relationship with them. So then it comes down to our own personal comfortability with that fact. It’s a hard one, and there really isn’t a particular right way to navigate it. People listening to their bodies and intuition and being educated on this is a start.
We should be aware of risk for our kids, and everyone will draw the line in a different place. Statistically, the largest danger for our children is cars, yet most of us put kids in a vehicle nearly every day, and drive places. We're aware of the risk, so we buy good car seats, drive cautiously, buy vehicles with good safety ratings, and advocate for safer street designs, lower speed limits, and protections for kids that walk to school. If you took the stats on vehicle crashes, and draw a conclusion that your child will never be permitted to be in, or around cars, most people would find that position to be extreme, and potentially harmful to the child even though there's very clear well founded statistical data to back it up.
Most of your advice here is good, but where people will take exception is to the idea that you will not permit your child to be alone with any man. Is Liam an exception? If he is, why? What about other boys? (My father in law was sexually abused by other boys at an all boys school) Are trans women also excluded? What about trans men? Does this mean you don't think men should be permitted to be doctors, nurses, counsellors or school teachers? Does this mean you believe only women should have a role in child rearing/education?
Someone raising concerns with the extreme parts of your views doesn't mean they're disregarding the very real statistics, are attacking you personally, or are taking issue with everything you wrote. While you may fall back to a "Well that's just my personal choice for my family," you need to think about what kind of world that would create if everyone took the same view.
I'm with you when you say we should be very careful and intentional about who has a close connection with our children. You lose me when you say your child will never be unsupervised with a man present.
I really appreciated this response. I had similar questions. I am also curious if others have this conservative of a view on parenting because it's nothing I've ever heard of before. Perhaps in Australia where the study is from? I agree that the study is alarming, but I do wish there were more studies and not just one cited, with a relatively small sample of people from one area of the world.
This article really has nothing to do with non-monogamy. It's more about Abbey stating their conservative views about childcare. I wish it was positioned more in that way. She leads with not be trusting of partners for childcare, but really it's all men (except Liam). I wish Abbey just lead with that, and it was more personal than "we must be critical of non-monogamy." I know it was supposed to be a catchy title, but this stuff matters when the non-monogamous/polyamorous lifestyle is constantly challenged.
The tone of this article was a bit different too. Usually I enjoy listening to Abbey and Liam because they are curious. They don't pretend to know it all. There's a humility that's endearing. This came off as heavy handed. I know the intention was to not be judgmental, but it's hard to feel that here.
Another great post! In a non-monogonous situation (i.e., not live-in poly), I feel that farming out childcare responsibilities to a lover would be rather odd, and kind of counter intuitive to the entire point. As parents of 3 kids, "escaping" from being recognised solely as mum was a big reason for my wife wanting to explore, along with the boost of feeling attractive to others. Being new to Canberra with no family childcare nearby also makes it just logistically easier for me to look after the children while my wife can enjoy engaging more with her sexual self, something I think many women can't find it difficult to re-engage once they become mothers. So completely understand your decision, it is just heartbreaking that this is the world we live in, where we need to think about things like grooming.
Great question. And, yes. We have made the decision to have a blanket rule with this. Without making it personal, we decided before I gave birth that our son is only ever in one on one care with us, his grandmothers or his female teachers. When we told my dad (who we are very close with us trust completely), he not only understood our decision but said that he felt proud of us for making this rule, because it shows that we take this stuff seriously. He understands that it’s not about him personally, it’s about the statistics and keeping our son safe. Keeping our child safe is more important to me than hurting a grown man’s feelings. Anyone who knows anything about grooming and this horrible stuff knows that the stats are through the roof, and it is nearly always someone who is incredibly close to, and even loved by- a parent. Statistically it is mum’s boyfriend, stepdad, an uncle, a grandfather, or a close family friend etc. It might sound that I am a paranoid mother, but this boundary actually makes me feel incredibly safe and confident in my parenting, because there is no part of me in the back of my mind that hopes he is safe if he is not in our care. I KNOW that he is safe, because I know exactly who he is with, because the women who care for him know that when he is in their care, he is only to be in THEIR care. Every family is different. And I will be the first to admit that we can choose to be hardline with this boundary because we have the ability to be hardline, due to having so much fantastic and a solid village of women in our lives. Not everyone has that. We are incredibly fortunate.
No, I know those figures. My own sisters were abused by a pedophile uncle, who also abused his own daughter. So, I completely understand, and I do not think you’re paranoid.
I’m so sorry to hear this. The reality is horrific and lots of people won’t ever talk about as it is such a horrible topic to discuss. But it is the most important conversation that parents should have, in my opinion.
With my own kids, I don’t think the question ever came up. My ex-wife and I hired a babysitting service that sent us Polish women, once, for a long time, a woman who was a doctor from Poland, studying for her US boards. Talk about feeling safe!
I do remember having discussed rehabilitation online with some people, and remarking that I would trust my (now late client) Johnny, who I got released from a 300 year prison sentence for a double murder which he actually committed, but who I had gotten to know over the process of representing him for many years to be completely rehabilitated, over whoever it was that I was talking to with my kids or anyone else else’s. I meant it too, although I never had the opportunity to let him watch them.
Sorry, that is a nightmarishly complicated sentence.
Male daycare, teachers are quite rare, as are male elementary school, teachers, but I think my own kids only ever had one in a group room with other teachers, and we never worried about it.
It’s weird how people go on about Mr. stranger danger, however, when the real threat is inside the house, whether from sexual violence or anything else.
This was a great read! Being aware of the rates of grooming is important. Even sleep away summer camps do not allow one on one time with the child and counselor in an isolated area.
Thanks so much. Yeah, I’ve been sitting on this topic for a while now, it’s a hard one to bring up and can definitely activate people, it’s uncomfortable, I get it. And people who are safe and loving could feel offended by our stance, which is truly not my intention. But I think the conversation and stats and reality of this stuff goes unspoken because people don’t want to upset the very good people- who I believe are the majority in our society. Thanks again for reading.
Right! I think what’s important is knowing what the risks are statistically. Personally even if my partner is a woman, I still wouldn’t take the risk of having them alone with a child. At least one other person who is trusted needs to be there in my opinion.
I cannot agree more strongly with you both! I am fully behind being poly and am so myself. However, when it comes to kids I become very conservative. They deserve no less. Many years ago a couple with whom I have had a poly relationship for over 50 years decided that they wanted to have an open marriage. They did not want children to be involved. Therefore they both took permanent measures; she had her tubes tied and he had a vasectomy. I was and am very proud of them for making that decision.
Of course it is possible for kids to grow up in poly situation. But it is the parents duty to put the kids needs first.
Thank you for this excellent post.
For sure. Consciously choosing whether or not to have children is so important. Liam and I feel very devoted to our parenting, and feel that we have good balance, with him always being our number one priority- as children should be.
I never doubted that you are good parents. You are both honest and open people. I so appreciate your work.
Abby. Excellent article. Thank you for being open and honest in how you and Liam navigate the many different aspects of our lives. Btw loved Liam vasectomy podcast.
Thank you so much for reading!! Oh yes! The vasectomy pod- so much fun recording that one. Update- he is fully recovered and doing very well !!!!!! 😂🙌🏽
Our child's safety is the most important thing to consider when entering into a new relationship with anyone, be it a new friend or lover. The trust that is required to leave your child with someone else is huge, but not everyone has a reliable village around them in this day and age, and babysitter services have increased massively especially within city communities. In some circumstances I believe there is a requirement to give a little trust in order to grow connections (when situation is appropriate); this is of course once the due process and "screening" has occured, and the child and caregiver (for lack of a better term) have met under the watchful eye of their parents, not to mention it is amazing how acute a child's sense of safety is with an adult! The phrase you mention at the beginning sounds wonderful, but it can be very toxic too with people rushing towards that euphoric paradise without considering their child's safety first, so therefore should be taken with a big grain of caution. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this Abbey, I really admire how firm and clear your boundaries are in this area.
Yeah, look absolutely. And as I said in the article, of course there are wonderful, safe and caring step fathers to children. Everything is very case by case, with differing circumstances. I just personally believe that the combination of New Relationship Energy and kids / caregiving is something to be very, very aware about. And as you said, not to rush, and to properly screen. Whilst also knowing that oftentimes grooming can happen over a number of years before anything ‘happens’. It’s a very tricky conversation but one that I wanted to talk about because so many avoid it, nobody wants to be triggered. It truly is the most uncomfortable conversation to have. And the reality is, if someone is alone with an adult, the only people who actually know what is going on is those two, not the perception of who we believe the person is, or our preexisting relationship with them. So then it comes down to our own personal comfortability with that fact. It’s a hard one, and there really isn’t a particular right way to navigate it. People listening to their bodies and intuition and being educated on this is a start.
We should be aware of risk for our kids, and everyone will draw the line in a different place. Statistically, the largest danger for our children is cars, yet most of us put kids in a vehicle nearly every day, and drive places. We're aware of the risk, so we buy good car seats, drive cautiously, buy vehicles with good safety ratings, and advocate for safer street designs, lower speed limits, and protections for kids that walk to school. If you took the stats on vehicle crashes, and draw a conclusion that your child will never be permitted to be in, or around cars, most people would find that position to be extreme, and potentially harmful to the child even though there's very clear well founded statistical data to back it up.
Most of your advice here is good, but where people will take exception is to the idea that you will not permit your child to be alone with any man. Is Liam an exception? If he is, why? What about other boys? (My father in law was sexually abused by other boys at an all boys school) Are trans women also excluded? What about trans men? Does this mean you don't think men should be permitted to be doctors, nurses, counsellors or school teachers? Does this mean you believe only women should have a role in child rearing/education?
Someone raising concerns with the extreme parts of your views doesn't mean they're disregarding the very real statistics, are attacking you personally, or are taking issue with everything you wrote. While you may fall back to a "Well that's just my personal choice for my family," you need to think about what kind of world that would create if everyone took the same view.
I'm with you when you say we should be very careful and intentional about who has a close connection with our children. You lose me when you say your child will never be unsupervised with a man present.
I really appreciated this response. I had similar questions. I am also curious if others have this conservative of a view on parenting because it's nothing I've ever heard of before. Perhaps in Australia where the study is from? I agree that the study is alarming, but I do wish there were more studies and not just one cited, with a relatively small sample of people from one area of the world.
This article really has nothing to do with non-monogamy. It's more about Abbey stating their conservative views about childcare. I wish it was positioned more in that way. She leads with not be trusting of partners for childcare, but really it's all men (except Liam). I wish Abbey just lead with that, and it was more personal than "we must be critical of non-monogamy." I know it was supposed to be a catchy title, but this stuff matters when the non-monogamous/polyamorous lifestyle is constantly challenged.
The tone of this article was a bit different too. Usually I enjoy listening to Abbey and Liam because they are curious. They don't pretend to know it all. There's a humility that's endearing. This came off as heavy handed. I know the intention was to not be judgmental, but it's hard to feel that here.
Another great post! In a non-monogonous situation (i.e., not live-in poly), I feel that farming out childcare responsibilities to a lover would be rather odd, and kind of counter intuitive to the entire point. As parents of 3 kids, "escaping" from being recognised solely as mum was a big reason for my wife wanting to explore, along with the boost of feeling attractive to others. Being new to Canberra with no family childcare nearby also makes it just logistically easier for me to look after the children while my wife can enjoy engaging more with her sexual self, something I think many women can't find it difficult to re-engage once they become mothers. So completely understand your decision, it is just heartbreaking that this is the world we live in, where we need to think about things like grooming.
Even a brother, a grandparent?
Great question. And, yes. We have made the decision to have a blanket rule with this. Without making it personal, we decided before I gave birth that our son is only ever in one on one care with us, his grandmothers or his female teachers. When we told my dad (who we are very close with us trust completely), he not only understood our decision but said that he felt proud of us for making this rule, because it shows that we take this stuff seriously. He understands that it’s not about him personally, it’s about the statistics and keeping our son safe. Keeping our child safe is more important to me than hurting a grown man’s feelings. Anyone who knows anything about grooming and this horrible stuff knows that the stats are through the roof, and it is nearly always someone who is incredibly close to, and even loved by- a parent. Statistically it is mum’s boyfriend, stepdad, an uncle, a grandfather, or a close family friend etc. It might sound that I am a paranoid mother, but this boundary actually makes me feel incredibly safe and confident in my parenting, because there is no part of me in the back of my mind that hopes he is safe if he is not in our care. I KNOW that he is safe, because I know exactly who he is with, because the women who care for him know that when he is in their care, he is only to be in THEIR care. Every family is different. And I will be the first to admit that we can choose to be hardline with this boundary because we have the ability to be hardline, due to having so much fantastic and a solid village of women in our lives. Not everyone has that. We are incredibly fortunate.
No, I know those figures. My own sisters were abused by a pedophile uncle, who also abused his own daughter. So, I completely understand, and I do not think you’re paranoid.
I’m so sorry to hear this. The reality is horrific and lots of people won’t ever talk about as it is such a horrible topic to discuss. But it is the most important conversation that parents should have, in my opinion.
With my own kids, I don’t think the question ever came up. My ex-wife and I hired a babysitting service that sent us Polish women, once, for a long time, a woman who was a doctor from Poland, studying for her US boards. Talk about feeling safe!
I do remember having discussed rehabilitation online with some people, and remarking that I would trust my (now late client) Johnny, who I got released from a 300 year prison sentence for a double murder which he actually committed, but who I had gotten to know over the process of representing him for many years to be completely rehabilitated, over whoever it was that I was talking to with my kids or anyone else else’s. I meant it too, although I never had the opportunity to let him watch them.
Sorry, that is a nightmarishly complicated sentence.
Male daycare, teachers are quite rare, as are male elementary school, teachers, but I think my own kids only ever had one in a group room with other teachers, and we never worried about it.
My daughter and my ex-wife, both trust me, pretty much unthinkingly, with my daughter’s children, who I would protect with my own life.
It’s weird how people go on about Mr. stranger danger, however, when the real threat is inside the house, whether from sexual violence or anything else.